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A Discussion of Ice and Fire

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We discuss George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and FIre in depth, with essays, art, theories, and occasional silly memes.


- We are a Book-oriented page. We'll discuss and bring up the implications of the show as it continues, but most of our writing will be from a perspective oriented only to the books, and much of our discussion on the show will be from a perspective of ire. - We are spoiler-friendly here. We speak openly as if our community is caught up all the way through A Dance With Dragons, the preview chapters from TWoW, and the most......


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He's just fucking with us now. A vampire that feeds on tears; an engine that runs on despairnn[The Northman]


So. August. We have a new series. nnThis series is unassociated with David and Dan. The entire production team is different. We have a different story, a different time, and the entire tale is already written and known. nnThere is, still, maybe, a chance it could be pretty good. I'm not necessarily keeping my hopes up, but - I'm gonna watch it I suppose, and either will be poor as expected, or a surprisingly good treat. nnI know a lot though have altogether felt pretty disillusioned with all things Westeros [not to mention the trash mill Essos stuff apparently in early production - a Yi Ti series? Why in god's name does anybody think that's a good idea?] But hey! New TV show, new content of any type, we'll be right back here again having reason to talk more on this page. If it's good stuff and if it seems expanded enough to have mysteries, we can theorize, and if it's trash, we can meme our misery together.nnHow you guys all feeling on it? Gonna watch? High hopes? Low hopes?


Six years ago this morning was the infamous Notablog post that broke many of us. The long, drawn-out series of posts on other topics surely leading to something big. Then finally after several hours the awaited final post, about Winds. And it wasn't that winds was done, it wasn't even near. nnHere's a poem I wrote in discussion at the time. Six years and nothing new


Ten years, lads. to the day. I remember after the first season reading the series, and at the end talking about how frustrating the wait would be. Veterans called me the summer child that didn't know waiting, but we were all the summer children then. I remember on the subreddit back around 2014 with people musing that the book wouldn't come out until 2017, until 2020, when these were hyperbole dates conjectured in jest. nnIt's been a bummer to have slowed down as much posting and whatnot with this page. Early on, we still had the show, and there were still fresh things coming in the theories and minds of the fanbase. But now that it's been 10 years since a book, and 2 years since the show, it's been bloody difficult to find much worth actually posting and discussing. Every now and then something interesting and novel shows up and I'll make a post, but it's all terribly dried up compared to the heyday. nnEveryone that's stuck around, glad to have y'all here still. Once there's new things to discuss, this page'll certainly with excitement be back on regular in-depth discussion.nnIn the meantime, I dunno maybe I'll start a series of highlights of characters or things from hitting random page on the wiki. Maybe some interesting things will come from a post with the 2 known sentences about Khal Moronn[The Northman]


To all my fellow yanks, hoping tomorrow morning we wake with as many fingers as we had when we woke this morning


I've been on a reread, and last night was the first heavy snow in my city, and my chapter was the first snows in Winterfell as Theon wanders the castle. Blessed timing, perhaps the gods give a portend of good news from GeorgennWhat stuck out to me was Theon hearing sobbing when he falls before the old gods in the godswood. He supposes it's "Arya,' but such supposition never is followed up on. Anybody have any alternate thoughts on what that might be? Bran trying to reach out? Something fucky with the spearwives?nn[The Northman]


question though for real - what'll come out first, Winds of Winter or Elden Ring?nn[The Northman]


Just as it was 4 years ago, there is only one man I bend the knee tonn[The Northman]


Found a pretty nifty theory I'd not seen before that I think may hold some water. nnpre-tl;dr: Euron Greyjoy maintained a presence in Qarth as Urrathon NightwalkernnFrom u/YezenIRL on r/asoiaf [link in comments]:nnUrrathon Night-Walker is a character mentioned only briefly in A Clash of Kings which is also the book where Euron is first mentioned.nnDany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"nnXaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. - Daenerys V, ACOKnnThis is the only time Urrathon Night-Walker is ever mentioned. But the name Urrathon is used in one other place in GRRMs writing. It is the name of the brief King of the Iron Islands Urrathon Goodbrother, or "Badbrother" who's story is a direct parallel to Euron's story.nn"Upon the death of King Urragon III Greyiron (Urragon the Bald), his younger sons hurriedly convened a kingsmoot whilst their elder brother Torgon was raiding up the Mander, thinking that one of them would be chosen to wear the driftwood crown. To their dismay, the captains and kings chose Urrathon Goodbrother of Great Wyk instead. The first thing the new king did was command that the sons of the old king be put to death. For that, and for the savage cruelty he oft displayed during his two years as king, Urrathon IV Goodbrother is remembered in history as Badbrother." - TWOAIFnnNote that this is the only other story of a Kingsmoot that is actually described anywhere. We know there were more than just this one and the one in AFFC, but this is the only one where we have the story. And in this story, Theon is a clear parallel to Torgon, while Euron is a parallel to Urrathon. In fact, the Torgon latecomer is the Chehkov's gun of the Kingsmoot...nnAsha remembered now. "Torgon came home …"nn"… and said the kingsmoot was unlawful since he had not been there to make his claim. Badbrother had proved to be as mean as he was cruel and had few friends left upon the isles. The priests denounced him, the lords rose against him, and his own captains hacked him into pieces. Torgon the Latecomer became the king and ruled for forty years."nnAsha took Tris Botley by the ears and kissed him full upon the lips. He was red and breathless by the time she let him go. "What was that?" he said. - The Wayward Bride, ADWDnnNow, I'm sure the skeptics among you are saying. "So there is a dude with an Ironborn name with a house if Qarth and Glass Candles. And so the names are a bit suspicious. Could be a coincidence. What else do we have tying this guy to Euron."nnWell... There is the fact that Euron is actually right around Qarth at this time.nn"I mean to open your eyes." Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend's flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat." - The Reaver, AFFC*nnHow do we know Euron is telling the truth about capturing Warlocks outside of Qarth?nnWell, Xaro confirms his story...nn"Not all your enemies are in the Yellow City. Beware men with cold hearts and blue lips. You had not been gone from Qarth a fortnight when Pyat Pree set out with three of his fellow warlocks, to seek for you in Pentos." - Xaro (Daenerys III, ADWD)nnNot two weeks after Dany had left Qarth, the Warlocks headed after Daenerys and Euron captured them. We actually see the warlocks in his posession in the Forsaken chapter. This means that Euron was near Qarth, which means that Euron and this Urrathon of Qarth with the Ironborn name and the Glass Candles were in the same place.nnEuron is also a collector of magical artifacts. He possesses incredibly rare Valyrian steel armor, a Dragon Binding horn, Shade of the Evening, and at one point presumably a Dragon Egg. Also, he collects magical people. He has in his possession 3 warlocks, a Red priest, a septon, and a Drowned Man. He also at one point hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon.nnI dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings." - TGOHH, Arya IV, ASOSnnNow, is there evidence that Euron has a glass candle? Well...nn"All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?" - Samwell V, AFFCnnGlass candles are used to send visions and appears in people's dreams. Is there any evidence Euron is doing this?nnA fuck ton actually.nnLet's look at the Forsaken chapter, where Euron continues to appear in Aeron's dreams...nnWhen he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him. “The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.”nnThen Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.” - The Forsaken, TWOWnnNow, if you are determined to believe that Aeron's dreams are just his anxiety about Euron, and Euron is not interfering in them in any way, that belief sort of has to stop here. The sphinxes in this dream represent Euron's attack on Oldtown, as the entrance to the Citadel is flanked by statues of Sphinxes. Aeron does not know that Euron's plan is to attack Oldtown, yet the dream depicts this anyways. This means Aeron is being acted on from an external source, which given the systematic nature of the dreams in trying to break down Aeron, it is clearly Euron.nnAlso, Euron appears in Dany's dream.nn"Sleep came hard, even when Daario came back, so drunk that he could hardly stand. Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice." - Daenerys VII, ADWDnnWhat proof is there that this is Euron? well, who is the only character in the novels descibed as having blue bruised lips? You guessed it.nn"King Crow's Eye, brother." Euron smiled. His lips looked very dark in the lamplight, bruised and blue." - The Iron Captainnnand again...nn"Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile." - The ReavernnEuron is projecting himself into Daenerys' dreams. He has the motive, the means, and he fits the profile. In fact, he is the only one who fits the profile.nnFuck, Euron is even described like a Glass Candle. Tall and twisted.nnPate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted. - Prologue, AFFCnnThe candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?" - Samwell V, AFFCnnIn Moqorro's vision, Euron is, you guessed it...nn"One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood." - Tyrion VIII, ADWDnntldr; Urrathon Night-Walker is Euron Greyjoy, and he is using a glass candle to project himself into people's dreams and send visions.nn------------------nnThoughts? I think the question of timeline, Euron only having been gone 2-3 years from Iron Islands makes him becoming a known entity in Qarth tight, but not impossible, at least not for a man seemingly able to rise his profile as he can. Questions of timeline vs things such as his supposed many travels still could jive in his travels being longer than just the time since his last leaving islands, or even him just being full of shit and having lived in Qarth most of the time regardless.nnI give it decent odds. An Ironborn name in Qarth when Euron known to be there isn't too big a stretch. Nor the question of his dream-sendingnn[The Northman]


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